difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve

The R134a compressor has a 1/8" step in on the high side port. The difference between the two is about 10,000 btu/h. 3) A TXV optimized for 134a will be ok with R12. Measure what you have now.3) Go back to the page in step one, and find the largest condensor you can put in your vehicle. is good, then I should be looking elsewhere? He used thermostatic expansion valve and Capillary tube for analysis with R12. Best for varieties of operating conditions: Its boiling point is -21.6 Celsius. I have some experience with auto a/c but not too much. Look at where the lines will end up. Before we mentioned that you can add approximately 5-6 ounces of ester oil to the compressor. Minor adjustments to the expansion valve and other controls may be necessary for some plans. Before landing on the debate of R134 vs R12 you should know that both R134a and R12 are AC refrigerants types used in refrigeration and air conditioning systems. ESP when a compressor has frozen. Energy usage: R134a is less efficient in cooling compared to R12. and he synthesized R-134a in 1936, 5 years after R-12 was . The smoking question & vent airflow indicate that the evaporator is fairly clean - and you are aware of the importance of that.The heater valve stops the flow, but there is always some conduction heating. These efforts to balance the system can not be realized if there are problems within the a/c system, such as: poor performing compressor, dirty condenser or poor air flow through the condenser, malfunctioning expansion valve, water or air in the system, improperly operating fresh air or heat input in the climate-air mixing system. They should be able to keep you comfortable on a long trip, but don't expect vent frost in 3 minutes or lesss.2) Too much oil can reduce cooling capacity, and the effect is not linear. Flushed, vacuumed etc. I remember I had the wrong seals and it leaked some oil, so I put some more in.Bohica - I tested the pressures. R134a Refrigerant Recharge Kit with BPV31 Bullet Piercing Valve and R134a Quick Coupler, R134a/R-12/R-22 Freon Refrigerant Hose Can Tap Kit for A/C System - Easy to use. The aux fan seems to be working fine - it switches on occassionally. CLUTCH CYCLING SWITCH. Where would I get some basic info on it, I know nothing about it. However, take note that R134a refrigerants are manufactured specifically for automotive air conditioners. That switch should close @ 52c. You do not have to split up the 5-6 oz of oil and add it to each component, just simply put it all in the compressor as it will move throughout the whole system once the system is operational. At least you do not have 16 ounces in there ( yup seen it before).For now, straighten all of the fins that you can, clean the condensor well, and re-test with the aux fan running. From memory, I put in at least 8 ounces of oil, probably around 10 ounces in there. Instead, top off R12 with R134a refrigerant. R12 and R22 are both now banned by the EPA in the United States. We, the Rxmechanic team, have presented a well-detailed comparison of R134a vs. R12. The exact amount will vary with each car. But as there's not a big difference, people say you can suffice with either. The major reason for the replacement of R12 with R134a was to curb future greenhouse effects. Since 2010, all home AC systems manufactured use a refrigerant like R134a that has zero ozone depletion potential (ODP). It can be used applications like walk-in coolers, food and dairy display cases, domestic refrigerators, and beverage dispensers and vending machines. Maybe a jerky locker.I cleaned the condensor with the off the shelf ac cleaner stuff from Home Depot that I used on my home evaporator. (The .133 is the 300D Turbo).So, what does your compressor look like?B. This drop can affect energy consumption since the plant will operate for a longer period or a larger plant will have to be installed. Besides, you have a greaseisel. This allows the refrigerant in the condenser to be void of oil particles. _____ 2012 E350 2006 Callaway SC560 . Gnats & mosquitos will clog deep. I've got a ball valve I'm going to put in the coolant line before the coolant goes through the firewall to the core. Use a strong surfactant like Simple Green or Zep Citrus, and soak the fins on the condensor. I mean, really a lot. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve . The general practice of charging the system with 15% less refrigerant adds to the thermal deficiency of R134a. B. 2001-2023 Griffiths Technical Inc. All Rights Reserved. That is for the compressor, drier, expansion valve and condenser. For instance at 25 F the pressure of R-12 is 24.6 PSI and the pressure of R-134a is 22.1 PSI. Remember, being aluminum, they lower the temps better, and do not pass off as much heat to the radiator, which then makes it's job easier and lowers underhood temps (besides lowering vent temps inside the car). Nice to use new gadgets! If you are replacing other system components, such as condensers, driers or hoses, you may need to add more a/c refrigerant oil to the system. Besides, its technology has been tested and trusted. Do a pre-inspection and then Evacuate (vacuum down) the system, the longer the evacuation the better but there is a point of diminishing return, 2-3 hours is generally very good. El maig de 2016, un grup damics van crear un lloc web deOne Piece amb lobjectiu doferir la srie doblada en catal de forma gratuta i crear una comunitat que inclogus informaci, notcies i ms. So that indicates it is cooling well there doesn't it? Here are the basics for converting a system that does not have a charge of R12, its empty. Use a drop light in the engine bay, and check the air path from the front of the car at night. The cost of recharging the air conditioner is between $150 to $500. Paul:A 1983 240D should have a York compressor on an OEM system. 30 deg is pretty coldSystems generally run between 40 and 43 deg. R1234yf. The substitute that we used for R-12 was the new HFC called R-134a. It was later found that R-134a had a very high Global Warming Potential, or GWP, number. 1) Warm Air From Vents. Can I just use an adapter and save $200? The OEM spec is 2300 rpm @ 12.6v (engine stopped fully charged battery). Heres some important advice Whenever you notice your R12 refrigerant is leaking, turn off all flames and open the doors so it can escape to the open atmosphere. If your a/c system is empty/low on refrigerant, if your system has a leak or if you need to open the system, then now is the time to decide which refrigerant you want to use. Most vehicles manufactured before 1993 have the R12 A/C system. Mine was 61, so the system is not working as it is supposed to. Even though their common major function is to cool the system, they have many differences. BTW, I use a stick thermo in the vents and the laser on the condenser. 5. R134a has an ozone depletion potential of 0, implying that it has a slight effect on the ozone layer. Moreso, it had been banned. So I probably put the highest suggested amount in to be safe. Rich Membership Chairman Using R134a in an R12 system will cause the oil not to move with the refrigerant, causing a system failure and probably won't even cool the system well, if at all. Talk about what services you provide. Vent temperatures slowly go down to around 50F with hi speed driving. I'm having the same concern. Production of R12 ceased in 1996, although it can still be reclaimed, purified, and resold, and small cans of New Old Stock R12 are still widely available on eBay and Craigslist. . Above this temperature, the saturation pressure of R134a is higher than that of R12; below, it is lower. Bookmarks: Digg; del . System has been working fine for a year. Not osmosis, but you know what I mean). The experimental values of C.O.P.H obtained with the R134a/ester charge were 20.2% Should I do the test again with the the aux fan jumpered? Whether R134a performs as well as R12 in any given a/c system depends upon system components and the amount of R134a used. It's best to determine on a case-by-case basis while monitoring system pressures and output air temperature. About four or five years ago, I guy with an MB came here with the same problem, that tread was over six pages long. Its among the greenhouse gases and will keep adding the current problem of heat not leaving the earths atmosphere. The system has been previously converted to R-134a. The common problem when converting from R12 to R134a is lack of knowledge or equipment. Using R134a requires that Polyolester (POE) lubricant must be used in the compressor. Rxmechanic.com is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for website owners to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Below are the major differences between R134a and R12: The chemical composition of R12 and R134a differ. I don't have the FSM matrix handy for that 123.123, but a 123.133 shows a test rpm of 2,000 - and vent temps between 54f & 66f at 91f to 95f ambient. compressor, condenser, evaporator and expansion valve are specifically designed for use with R134a. 3) A/C Compressor Always On. AFAIK, there is no clutch on the engine fan on the 240D. Pound for pound R134a is a more efficient refrigerant than R12, however it runs at higher pressures in some aspects and therefore requires more effective condensing. Paul -------------------------1983 Mercedes 240D on R12 and WVO!1192 Mercedes 300D 2.5 R134a1993 Toyota Pickup converted to R134a. June 21, 2022 difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve . R134a compressors are substituted as new to retrofit the R12 system compressor part numbers with different height sealing washers. This is not to say that one of these small retro-fit kits cant be used, however to be used wisely. 42 (at best) w/ 134A in 2000 isuzu trooper. Though you can purchase 12 or 16 ounce cans of R134a from local retailers it is very difficult to measure out the correct amount into your system. Comparatively, larger R134a molecules should take more space, and a smaller amount might be required. R404a for freezing of product. Flush with a garden hose - do not use a high pressure washer - you can bend the fins flat & damage the condensor.B. R134a refrigerant fittings are different size. we convert older systems where i work all the time and they work fine. 5. Nick, I hear you - there maybe nothing to do here. I dont know why the cost difference between compressors is so huge, though. The ARPA Zone/Open Membership Discussion Forums. Very nice! If the system was upgraded by a professional it should have an upgrade sticker. B. The Main change in the system is the expansion valve. This is 11F off the FSM performance graph - vent should be around 50F. It can be used applications like walk-in coolers, food and dairy display cases, domestic refrigerators, and beverage dispensers and vending machines. These cheap kits usually have a few cans of R134a (either 12 ounce or 16 ounce), maybe an extra can of refrigerant oil, a few generic R134a charge port adapters and maybe some o-rings. Or is there always room for improvement, the more the merrier. You can also check the Aux fan in your case. Yep, definately not a meat locker. Even with proper fan operation, missing seals & air dams can effect condensor effeciency. R12 is CFC: Even though R12 is one of the most commonly used refrigerants, it is CFC. A slow loss of cooling at city speeds is usually related to condensor capacity & airflow issues. and feeds it through an expansion valve. Debug the condensor (I am a computer nerd after all!)3. . If not, you just don't know unless a test is performed. One of the differences between auto air conditioners that have been redesigned from R12 to R134a is that the condensers have gone from serpentine to pseudo-parallel. Bad Car A/C Expansion Valve Symptoms. Its not that difficult but the procedures of evacuation, charging and testing should be done by a licensed a/c technician that is experienced with R134a and your particular car. With R12 you use to check to see if the site glass was full, if it had bubbles it meant you had a low charge. We chose to use 5-6 ounces of oil to be on the safe side: 3-4 ounces for the compressor, 1 oz of oil for the drier and another ounce of oil for system losses. Therefore, the R12 refrigerant is illegal, and emitting it is illegal. But as there's not a big difference, people say you can suffice with either. Thanks for the input. You may be just fine on oil - it depends on what compressor you have & how much oil you put in.A T/C is short for Thermocouple. When I compare parts, 93 uses one part number and 94 has a different part number. It's not just the poor performance - the cooling just stops working after a while. We've updated our forums!Click here to visit the new forum, Year: 1983Make: MercedesModel: 240DEngine Size: 2.4Refrigerant Type: R12Ambient Temp: 90Pressure Low: 35Pressure High: ?Country of Origin: United States, Hi, this is my first post, so please take it easy on the noob. You do not need to replace every o-ring in the system, but if you happen to open a connection that has an o-ring you should replace the old o-ring with one that is compatible with R134a and lubricate the o-ring with ac oil. At this point it is time to make an appointment with the a/c shop. I bought a relay to put on it connected to the compressor clutch. I'll put the relay on for that. A capacity curve is shown in figure 2 for relative capacity of R134a vs. R12 for evaporating temperatures from 0F to 50F. 4) Inconsistent Airflow. A/C Expansion Valve Replacement Cost. Usually, mechanics charge around $200 for conversion. I'm thinking of jumping the temp switch and leaving the fan on to see how it does. It is made up of carbon, hydrogen, and fluorine. This leads me to labor over every small decision. The oil is spread all over your system when it is at rest. Generally the system will be initially charged with approximately 80% to 85% of the original amount of R12, using R134a. |. When you add fluorescent tracer dye to with the refrigerant oil it helps to track down leaks that push oil out of the system. Is it exponential, squared? R134a requires the use of synthetic oil! Right now you know you have a bit too much, but with a CR4P compressor this is an insurance policy. There are significant differences between R12, R134a, and R513A, which must be considered when handling, processing, applying, or retrofitting with these refrigerants. A. Pressure/temperature plot of R134a vs. R12 is shown in figure 1. Though I have seen em run as cold as 12 deg F. If the thermo switch is malfunctioning. And by matching the correct amount of R134a to use in a given vehicle, correcting the superheat of the expansion valve (if necessary), you can in some manner nearly balance or match the amount of heat drawn out by the evaporator and released by the condenser. R12 systems used mineral oil, but unfortunately mineral oil doesn't dissolve in R134a. Took me a while to figure that one out, and how to say that. In this study, without the need for major modifications to the bus air conditioner, the variation of the ejector dimensions according to different parameters has been investigated in the case of using the R1234yf, R1234ze(E), or R600a refrigerants, which may be a substitute for R134a as a refrigerant due to . R12 can move more heat than r134 so when it isn't very hot and the system isn't maxed out you wont be able to tell the difference but when its 110 out and the inside is 140 R12 will cool the cabin temp faster. Also, would a genuine R12 TXV be better, or is it too marginal to worry about?I think I should do the FSM test for performance - they have a graph with ambient temp and a/c temp. Are you sure you have an R4? I found that in the..Maxposition on the control it will have the compressor running all the time. Well, I'm not sure it is 'fine' - it doesn't cool very well in 95F weather. You do not want to exceed the systems high side recommendations. Hmmmm. It won't be optimal, though.On some/many valves, you can adjust them, but that might make matters worse unless you really know what you're doing (which I don't!).RegardsGeorge. . A slow loss of cooling at city speeds is usually related to condensor capacity & airflow issues.You could improve the cooling capacity by replacing the condensor with a high effeciency parallel flow unit. I've done the FSM test and with 81F ambient, the vent should be 50F. What effect would it have on performance, if any?At the moment, the ac is acting up - will work fine for about 15 minutes and then slowly the vent temperatures rise until the compressor switches off. All fans must work at 100% of the OEM rating. If liquid refrigerant were to exit the evaporator. I don't know where it is getting the switch off command, or why the vent temp drops steadily. R12 contains a chemical called chlorine that destroys the ozone layer, thereby causing potential environmental risk. For R12, its mineral oil. Safe but sorry! The cure is to use the newer R134a compressors is sealing washers that are different thickness. James10952001. Spray it deep, and let it sit for a few minutes. american sniper longest shot; how to adjust sunsetter awning arms; pastor jeremy roberts texas. The general practice of charging the system with 15% less refrigerant adds to the thermal deficiency of R134a. Biggest you can fit in there is best. That would be the "black death" syndrome. Then when it is switched off for a few minutes and then back on, the air cools again. Large temperature difference between expansion valve inlet and outlet oReplace expansion valve Air . And, unfortunately a small high side pressure gauge on a short hose. R12 is simply too expensive for a 25+ year old A/C system. -------------------------"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." After the system has been tested out it should be checked for leaks. It runs between the condenser outlet, receiver/drier unit and expansion valve at the firewall. El juny de 2017, el mateix grup va decidir crear un web deDoctor Who amb el mateix objectiu. The whole trick is to sit there in those steam boxes and not perspire, it's vulgar to perspire when driving on public roads.If you want esteem, drive an MB, if you want comfort with 60*F interiors in a 125*F environment, get a Caddy. How is 1234yf different from . The best replacement for R134a is R1234yf, while R12 refrigerant replacement was R134a. A final difference is that most (though not all) R-1234yf cars will have a Suction Line Heat Exchanger. This kit comes complete with Expansion valve, o-ring kit, and 1ft. It is made up of carbon, hydrogen, and fluorine. absorb by the evaporator to insure all liquid refrigerant entering the evaporator. That's a lot isn't it? The problem with these so called drop in replacements is that to properly handle them you may need dedicated equipment to identify the gas and evacuate it for proper disposal. Trinary Pressure Switch $ 39.99. We are an automotive mechanic blog that helps mechanics and car users to find the most recent and accurate technical and repair information for their cars. R134a and R12 are both refrigerants used in vehicle air conditioning systems. 4) Repeat step 2, making sure it will fit. There is a lot of differences between the R12 and the R134a fittings, you can't mistake them. There is only a temperature switch on these cars as far as I recall, and it just switches on the aux fan. This is an electronic tool that sucks in air through a tube and across a sensor. Hope this helps. This refers to BTU's (heat) moved per pound of refrigerant moved. It is possible I have 10 ounces (250 ml) in the system. Besides, R134a refrigerant was manufactured after R12 was banned to help reduce the harshness of the old chemical (R12) on the ozone layer. R1234yf is more environmentally friendly and has a global warming potential of 4. ThanksPaul -------------------------1983 Mercedes 240D on R12 and WVO!1192 Mercedes 300D 2.5 R134a1993 Toyota Pickup converted to R134a. Any advice appreciated. might be due to charge or different compressor and age. Its chemical symbol is CH2FCF3. If ambient is 90 (today) and the output of the condensor is 110, that's pretty good isn't it? R134a and R12 are among the most popular types of refrigerants. The Wikipedia explanation for expansions valves cited in Frank's thread says that the gas inside the bulb in the metering valve is the same as the refrigerant in the system. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve. All pre-97 XJs use systems with the same basic operating principle, although the parts do change a bit. The current expansion valve is FF - 1/4 - C. Is it neccesary to replace this valve? All fans must work at 100% of the OEM rating. Make sure to get the R12 EXP valve if that is the way you go. Then again, there are two different expansion valves. If you have a perfectly operating system using R12 you do not have to drop what you are doing and convert to R134a. R134a requires a different oil. This works when the R12 charge specification is listed in pounds. 1) Look Here at the available sizes of PF condensors.2) Go look at your vehicle's condensor & mounting. The compressors used by refrigeration plants to compress gas require oil to help lubricate its moving parts. These two refrigerants are the older types and are not used in newer refrigeration and air conditioning systems. They plug all the time. Interestingly, theres one oil type that works perfectly with both types of refrigerants. A York oil capacity is listed as "6.5 to 9.6 ounces". difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve. Anyone know what happens when an R12 expansion valve is used in a system charged with R134A? My turn to LOL - greasiesel! I have just bought gauges. As R134A refrigerant has different operating characteristics and pressures this valve is not necesssry. Formula: (R12 Charge Specification x 0.9) - 0.25 lbs. I would not do a 134a conversion without a PF condensor. It's actually a reaction with chlorine in the mineral oil that may have been absorbed and leftover from the old R-12. The original expansion valves work very well with R134a. Also, since R134a uses synthetic oil, it has a low global warming potential, unlike R12 which uses mineral oil which poses a negative environmental impact. Its highest value is 1. But, if your old compressor has lock-up or if your current expansion valve is not functional it would wise to replace the expansion valve with a valve designed for R134a. You are indeed 20% out of the OEM spec for cooling. A. Pressure/temperature table for R12, R134a, and R513A is shown in Figure 1. . Like say half a can or so recharge come springtime warm weather or something. Generally you follow the refrigerant flow moving from connection to connection, component to component, and you sniff the a/c vents to check for evaporator leaks as well. Replacement expansion valve for R134a or R12 A/C refrigerants, with O-ring connections. I used a full can of evap cleaner. I don't want to be chasing ghosts. Miscibility with oil: R12 can be mixed with the compressor oil no matter the operating condition. The good thing is that after you convert to R134 you can top off the system easily and cheaply. In large application systems, the vapor density of this refrigerant is usually high. Unfortunately, the R12 refrigerant doesnt always blow cold air. Is that why expansion valves are specific to R12 or R134A? I would suggest you do stay away from R-134a since with the hot gas bypass of your system (if it is to be just as the original) extremes of temperature and pressure will be very hard on your compressor and the rest of the system. But R22 is almost equally damaging. When the sensor detects the refrigerant leak the sniffers lights glow and the sniffer makes a noise. It would make a big difference at idle ,in traffic!! If you're getting a R134a compressor, might as well finish the job - replace the receiver/dryer, flush everything else, and convert to R134a anyhow. Are r12 and r134 fittings different? Also the new quick connect fittings for the high & low side. Temp switch works the aux fan. As for R134a and R1234yf, theres no room for conversion. There is more to check.The evaporator must be clean as well as the condensor - was this a smoker's car?You should check the water control valve for the heater core. Carefully study the chart and compare the following: To a large extent, the choice is up to you. Make sure to wear safety gloves, goggles, and shoes when theres a possibility of exposure to the chemical (R134a). R134a and water have the same abilities to change the state but R134a can do this more rapidly and at a much lower temperature than water. Generally this works well for the whole system. Later model cars that come with 134A will have 134A only connectors. At 2000rpm, windows open, highest fan, hi pressure stabilized at 225 psi, low 25psi.Ambient 81F, vent 61F. In the automotive world, the replacement for R12 was R134a. Autor de l'entrada Per ; Data de l'entrada calexico west port of entry hours; 12 month libor rate 2021 a difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve a difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve Expansion valves are an active device, they regulate the flow of refrigerant to the evaporator depending on evaporator temperature. The pressure/temperature curves for R-1234yf and R-134a are very similar. ambulance tailgate conversion If you have the work done, be sure you find a true "A/C" shop that can make up lines. Also called the orifice tube. On this website we are addressing only R134a and not other suggested drop in replacements. Note that passwords are case-sensitive. The only mechanical differences between an R12 system and an R134a system are that R134a systems typically have larger condensers and more powerful compressors. Though - the valve for a 1991 says R12 on it, and for a 1994, it says R-134a. Still, I have some simple green, so may as well give it a go. R-12 to R-134a Conversion. As noted, measure up front as best as you can to get as close to the aftermarket dim. Fitting a PF condensor is not rocket science, but it requires some planning. I think so. Its chemical symbol is CCl2F2. However, the supply houses don't indicate a difference. Performance doesn't seem to have improved. The larger fitting goes on the discharge port and the smaller fitting goes on the suction line or compressor inlet / suction port. This is the part that controls the system pressures. You'll get marginally better performance out of the change as the expansion valve is matches the refrigerant characteristics. Not going to mess up your 'do, but you can feel it. in /nfs/c05/h04/mnt/113983/domains/toragrafix.com/html/wp-content . Then, subtract that result by 0.25 pounds to get the proper amount of R134a charge. A Lot of the fins are bent, especially at the top. That is a good thing. Yes, the 50F diff (160-110F) on the condenser was at idle, and ambient was about 90F. Your average garage that works on a/c on the side probably would not have this. It does not "pool" to any degree in a large amount anywhere. asia pacific stevie awards 2021. gin, amaretto cocktail. Shorting the plug for the refrigerant switch should run the fan when the compressor is on. Automotive Replacement Expansion Valves & Parts; Industrial & Scientific; Customer Reviews. Hence, let us continue to fix it. The Wikipedia explanation for expansions valves cited in Frank's thread says that the gas inside the bulb in the metering valve is the same as the refrigerant in the system. An extra half ounce? "Jerky Locker" LMAO I am using that one in the future!Florida = BUGS! The pressure at low temperatures is nearly the same between 12 and 134a. However, it was found to be a very bad gas for the environment. -------------------------"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." Then at least I'd know really where I am on it. What is usually sniffed are all the connections in the system: hoses and compressor, condenser, drier, expansion valve and evaporator fittings. According to Wikipedia, There is such a thing as "r132a" (1,1-Dichloro-2,2-Difluoroethane), however there is no indication of it being a commercially produced refrigerant. Expansion Valve. R134a is otherwise called 1,1,1,2 Tetrafluoroethane, Florasol 134a, Freon 134a, Norflurane (INN) or HFC 134a. Compared with the cost-performance ratio, R507 is 30-40% . At 40, it is 35psi, which is a difference of 8.9psi. . Even if the system leaks, repairing the leaks and recharging it with R-12 is usually the best repair alternative. With the A/c off hi and lo were both at 105psi. A/C receiver difference between R12 and R134a? You can spend long evenings reading about the differences between the two refrigerants. The P H and T cond,sat of the HR12 at a T oa of 40 C were higher than that of the R134a, resulting in a higher P e than that for the R134a. But I don't want to waste your time. had writing on the side that said R134a. Is checking the temperature of the in and out of the condensor not the easiest way to tell if it is doing a good job or not? The sticker typically has a place to note the amount of refrigerant used, the type of oil and amount of oil, the technicians sign off or name and the date of the conversion.

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