old belgian gun makers

manufactured firearms, such as pistols from Spain and Italy, will list a % Belgian Arms cie Inspectors mark, normally these are kept secret. As mentioned, Damascus barrels were made from strips of iron and steel wrapped around a mandrel in "barber pole" fashion, and the spriral pattern can usually be seen clearly. Collings Hadelin Listing of small arms appearing from 1800 to 1899. Hello,I have a flintlock rifle that is stamped "spesco corporation made in Belgium" on the top of the smoothbore barrel. Proof Credit: @matt_s_schmidt Unfortunately, given that double barrel shotguns were made in numerous countries and then exported to the USA, chances are that not all of them will state the manufacturer and serial number in the same way. It means it's a 12 gauge that has been proofed with black powder. It is unfortunate from the point of view of history that weapons were not marked with a date letter as is customary with silver hall-marks, but the proof-marks stamped upon arms give no indication of the period of proof. I can send pictures of it. Board Of For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Today, Belgian firearms designer Francotte builds famed double barreled shotguns and fine rifles. Andr M.J. Unmarked barrel with Belgian proof mark, action currently . Sorry for my delay in responding: I've been OOT and off-line for two weeks. This devotion to Americana papers over the foreign status of all three gun companies: Glock. Thanks Hause. These marks are the Belgian Lion rampant over the letters S.C.H. Counet - Genot Britte Frres Revolvers are marked on barrel, on the frame, and on each chamber. into which each separate book is dealing with a small portion of the whole, and that is After this, the firearm is examined to make sure it is still intact and if so, the metal (usually the barrel) is stamped with . 1893 - 1924 1930 - present CH B RAYE 15 Designates 4th or nitro proof; the mark contains the name of the powder in abbreviated form ( Schultze, E.C.) Counet-Leboulle J. Thank y'all for your help ahead of time! 4 0 obj What does 12 over C mean in a triangle? The crown R and star P stamped on the barrel, receiver, and cylinder. A Adaptive Tactical Shotguns American Tactical Shotguns B Baikal Shotguns Barrett Shotguns Benelli Shotguns Beretta Shotguns Blaser Shotguns Browning Shotguns C Century Shotguns Charles Daly Shotguns Chiappa Shotguns Cachoir This includes many fine Browning A5 shotguns and the Superposed shotgun. Choke constriction, together with barrel dimension this can give a brief view of the choke. Hand Guns 2 Rifles-Shotguns 0 . The Great Exhibition of 1851 in London did much to publicize Lefaucheuxs system. The blue is rough but the action works. Fakes and fraudulentmakers' marksare not a recent invention--note what William Greener said in 1835 (seemy earlier post of April 20, 2014). significance or purpose. Beckers G. I'll restrict myself therefore tosaying something about gun making in Belgium and offering some proof marks. Counet Philippe The Belgian gun industry in Liege produced flintlock muskets for their African colonies until the mid-1950s. will it take normal 12 gauge shells then? It passed proof for nitro which at the time would have been a service pressure of about 9,000 psi. Drue, yes, the absence of rifling means that this pin-fire was used for shot.Pin-fires represent an important stage in the development of firearms. Last edited on 20 February 2023, at 21:10, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_firearm_brands&oldid=1140599647, Air defense equipment, artillery, munitions, explosives, ED devices, industrial machinery, Ammunition, Suppressors, Outdoor products, Clothing, Civilian, law enforcement, military, security, Suppressors, rails/handguards, accessories, ammunition, clothing. . So I'd guess it was made in the late 1800's. Photos of the flats on the barrels and on the action would help a lot. JavaScript is disabled. I will try to upload a pic if it'll let me. The first on the left and the fourth (the one that resembles a candlestick)indicate provisional proof. Is there a stamp of LLH on the tubes forward of the flats? Bertrand Antoine & Fils Ateliers Saint Laurent, Bauwir Joseph HI, John. American gun manufacturers moved away from Damascus barrels and on to tubes made from fluid steel. Hand Guns 9 Rifles-Shotguns 0 . Smokeless powder proof of military rifles until 1903, thereafter indicates nitro proof for all types of arms. A forum community dedicated to Shotgun owners and enthusiasts including the Remington, Beretta, and Mossberg shotguns brands. Some were sold in Stoeger catalogs in the early 60s. Behr Jean jacques Liege, in Belgium, has always been celebrated for its weapons, and established its proof house as a municipal enterprise on May 10, 1672, when it was laid down that barrels should be marked with the stamp of the city, and unproved weapons might not be sold under pain of a fine of a gold florin and the confiscation of the unproved barrel. The book presented below is the second of the series and is covering the gun makers whose names are in the D to F range of the alphabetical order. Their total production was around 180,000 guns. Seen OldGuns Newsletter . 254.541.2985 John Hille, john@jhille.com. i have old 12 bore gun with marking as -elg with crown above in oval shape, PV, CHOKE, 1KG 545, X WITH STAR ON IT, 12.65, these r sum of the markings, the condition is good, its our family gun, but i dont know it value or year of manufacture, if u can help. Clment Walter I have tried to look up an 1136 but am unable to locate them anywhere. Any idea how to date it? Bodson TH. Many thanxPS:. Outdoor Hub, LLC (d/b/a Carbon Media Group), 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. The Standard mark for French Government arms was a crown above an E., and this crown has a three looped top, with the orb or ball and cross as ornament, and is so distinguished from the cross-crested crown of some St. Etienne weapons. Arnold Mathias Rifles & Musket Information. I also looked at other European proof marks but didn't find the one you mention: compare http://www.cornellpubs.com/Catalog/proof-marks-intl.pdf. Bte" tells us the maker: it stands for "Dieudonn Debouxthay Brevete", or "Patent Dieudonn Debouxthay" in English. Further changes were initiated, when smokeless powder necessitated more stringent conditions of proof. Baker, David J. There's no indication of gauge. I believe you'll find that the E in a diamond symbol is the mark used by the Timothy Eaton company of Toronto Canada. Original handmade flintlock & percussion ("cap & ball") firearms . It's complete. Lee Kennett did afine survey, "A History of Proof Marks: Gun Proof in Belgium," that waspublished in. gunmakers treated in this first volume are : Albini BraendlinAncion & C Please someone let me know that they know about these Belgian doubles! Subcategories This category has only the following subcategory. CLEMENT, J. The are no available records of these old Belgium shotguns, Because of the action and style the best guess would be an era, between 1920 and 1940. But despite the history the belgian proof stamps are rather straight forward, normally one can't get more information from the proof more than it has been done if one can't find the inspectors mark. In contrast to Walther, Mauser did not start over with serial numbers at the . << /Length 5 0 R /Filter /FlateDecode >> Carl, I've checked Wirnsberger's Standard Directory of Proof Marks as well as those listed at Cornell Publications, and came up empty handed. Originally evolved by the armourers themselves, the system of proof was in nearly every arms-producing country taken over by the Municipality or the State, who imposed a series of stringent by-laws and penalties on any who sought to evade the prescribed tests. Email: Info@hlebooks.com Miscellaneous Thank y'all again! Clment Charles Philibert Just got hold of a 12gauge apparently belgian shotgun with a mark reading AB and an M below, surrounded by a small circle with a crown on top. date, serial number and property marks as well as various acceptance and BELGIAN MADE, 12 GAUGE, BOXLOCK EJECTOR, 32" BARRELS, CHOKES MODIFIED & FULL, 2-3/4", BROADWAY RIB, GOLD WASHED SINGLE SELECTIVE INERTIA TRIGGER, NON-AUTOMATIC SAFETY, PISTOL GRIP, .Click for more info Seller: Country Pursuits Area Code: 718 $3,895.00 ROYAL GUN, BELGIUM SXS 12GA, GI#: 102149842 Mauser was a late entry in 1888. Long Beach, CA: Safari Press, 2000. On January 27, 1910, in Liege, a Justice of Peace heard a case of gunmaker's employee Joseph Bury vs. La Zurich insurance company. R. Medina on October 31, 2020: ttn intnl model 1878 s/n 4751. michael v ventimiglia on October 30, 2020: new england firearms ( N G 001039 ) model r22 ultra mini. Birmingham did not establish its proof houses until 1813, and though another Act was passed in 1815 to strengthen the former, the laws were not stringent enough, and the Birmingham proof was not recognized as sound until much later, when the Act of 1855, still unsatisfactory, and the eventually satisfactory one of 1868, was passed. 1890, double bbl shotgun, 12 ga, 30" bbls. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Again, thank you Also on the chamber there are three marks, one which I have not been able to identify, but appears to be provisional proof? Courard N. The size of this book of 232 pages A fine Antique Belgian Double barreled Flintlock sporting gun by Michel Berleur Liege with rainproof pans with safety-covers released by a spring-catch at the front of the steels. Hand Guns 24 Rifles-Shotguns 22 . Just because a long gun from Belgium is a flintlock, therefore, doesn't necessarily mean that it's "of the period," as antique dealers say. Spesco was based in Atlanta, GA, and imported a variety of reproduction and modern guns in the 1960's and 70's.It would be a good idea to check that the rifle is unloaded. In 1849 the additional ciphers for provisional proof the letters E.L. in script, enlaced, and the sign of the tower of Liege a little obelisk upon a pyramidal base, also shown on the right [above]. A complete list of suppliers of shotguns. Bettonville - Fontaine I can't tell if it was proved for nitro: those have a lion over the PV. The fourth the crossed branches, with the letters S.E.E., and a cross in their angles. I think the barrels of that gun are solid steel, and the marking would seem to bear that out, but the gun should be examined by a knowledgeable gunsmith before firing with modern ammunition. I'm not familiar with the proof mark you describe, although a French one exists of AR with a three-pronged crown above, used for smokeless powder proof (but no M). Any help would be appreciated. A fine antique 18th Century Double Barreled English Percussion Sporting Gun by the famous maker Henry Nock London, caliber 14 mm . typically do not have a caliber designation; symbols and codes are used individual armorers and inspectors used their own unique stamps in some Bovy Thodore Joseph There is no doubt that this system contributed much to the good report in which properly proved arms were held, and laid the foundation of much export trade. 1870-1898. Hi, thanks for the info and knowledge you provided. Bernimolin & Cap and hardbound book, written in English and French by Alain Daubresse, provide an extensive Search. You can easily choose the shotgun you need on Ammoterra.com. I recently decided to clean it up. source of Manufacturer Serial Numbers. Ad Categories: Pre-1840. The crowned R was for revolvers after semi-smokeless proof and 50 % excess pressure. The family was in the barrel making business from the 1880's until mid the 1960's. http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/artisans identifies d/a delcour dupont gb.htm This is Jean-Baptiste Delcour-Dupont and his son Oscar, 1924. As for proof marks, the oval with E/LG/* inside makes it indeed Belgian. Braekers Charles & Cie My grandfather was a hunter long back in time just after WW2 and I have his shotgun in memory of him. I bought an old shotgun from my uncle, he bought it in the late 40s early 50s. Cap Joseph I have not been able to locate an authoritative resource 14 Designates guns with rifled chokes. The standard proving of weapons rose out of the need for protection on the part of the public against unreliable weapons, and it was also a means of protecting the armourer guild and good craftsmen against outside competition with cheap imported arms. Mark for optional superior provisional proof. weapon. Worldwide Logistics for all your products. . it was my grandfathers and has been in the family for a while. I will have to upload some pictures later when I get to my computer. If you are considering buying a Belgian gun, look long and hard atits quality. 1891 - present 16 Barrel weight in grams of nitro proofed shotguns. The only other markings I have seen are along the length of thr barrel \ \/ | . Original British Martini-Henry Rifle Extractor Mk IV From $34.95 Free Domestic Shipping on orders $300+ Hassle Free 30 Day Return Period 100% Safe Secure Checkout Guaranteed Authentic to the Historical Period Hello, I have two ELG 1136 Belgian Percussion Dueling pistols with a 6 inch barrel. A "Greener" double? Saillevillean E. reversed set in a square stamp (as shown below). of data available and a wealth of color pictures about the most typical pieces of his The first type of testing we will study is the Proof Test. Tullea three spiked crown or mitre above a capital E (as shown below). + 10-14% by piezoelectric transducer measurement. Reply rdlowe Pilgrim Joined Dec 11, 2015 Messages 236 Reaction score 190 Location Dallas TX Dec 21, 2018 #3 curator said: Ancion Marx Forum, http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/artisans identifies d/a delcour dupont gb.htm, http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html, http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_Trade_Marks.html. "Any maker's name or place of origin? Bastin Frres It has punched on one side of barrel 17.2, on the other side punched JC, EL ,pinfire symbol, K and crown on its top, E LG little crown under them in oval.Please help me to get the closest identification for this nice firearm. cases. Still, this company firmly has its roots in the good old U.S.A. John Moses Browning is a legend of firearms history. Serial # 58755 S76 This custom made Belgium gun was probably designed for the European market. "Proofs" as they are sometimes referred to have changed over Comblain H. J. Ithaca Gun Company: One of America's most successful gun makers. Mark for voluntary treble temporary or provisional proof on unfinished barrels, Mark for voluntary double temporary or provisional proof on unfinished barrels. Very long barrel. My best guess is that it's a maker's mark, but of course I could be wrong. Those are about the only other possible sources of information, and probably won't narrow it down much more than what we know: second half of the 19th century, but before 1892.Best,GerryBest. only 70 i see is the 70above the D = above where it says 20.7 i dont know what those numbers mean. Hi, your shotgun was made after 1924 due to the Perron-Liege proof marks. I would be grateful to any lover of arms who possesses authentic dated weapons, or has catalogued a private collection, if he would send to me, in care of my publishers, any such information which will add to the mass of fact available. Antique Shotguns (Pre-1899): Belgian Shotguns, Side by Side Shotguns Our inventory of antique shotguns is made up of shotguns manufactured before 1899, including English, French, and Belgian shotguns. To make purchases and use the full site services, register or login your account. are cottage industry type weapons without a specific brand name. arsenal marks, you will find other marks or stampings. Thanks. Christophe Louis Can you send me some, Ed? thank you. Can't help much w/o some photos (send to ghcox3@gmail.com). The same stamp but smaller is found on Flobert guns, selfloading pistols with a excess proof pressure of 50%, on barrels of top break guns for Flobert or revolvers cartridges an excess pressure of 30% and or revolvers which are proofed with 30-50% excess loads. The mark was seldom requested, Chamber dimensions in millimeters shotguns undergoing smokeless proof. Beuret Frres A forum community dedicated to all firearm owners and enthusiasts. Bultot Jean The major countries which either did not have proof or whose marks were not recognized were the U.S. and Spain. Thank you Jerry. is about 30 cm X 22 cm (11.80" X 8.60"). The gun belonged to HH Nawab Ahsanullah. Thanks! Home | Login | Register. Have had this gun in family for as far as i remember at least 40 years. M Mecar (4 P) Pages in category "Firearm manufacturers of Belgium" This printed One of the lesser known of the Belgian handgun makers was Jean Warnant but he was a creative designer and the British Thornton's Patent for a double action revolver lock work was actually originally his idea for which he applied for a patent in Belgium in 1874 and that patent was granted in 1875. This mark is found on guns that is not made in Belgium by countries that use proofs that is not recognized by the Belgian Proof House. 1899-2011 Modern Guns. I have my grand dads Belgian Browning A5 Sweet Sixteen. Testing the gun stream Double proof as prescribed by the French law of 1810. Armourers marks are quite distinct from proof-marks, and comprise the private marks, ciphers, stamps, or signatures of the individual armourers or gunsmiths. The "D.D. If you are interested in import, export, or wholesale purchase of shotguns, theres no better place than AmmoTerra to find a buyer or supplier of military equipment. [Later note: Gerhard Wirnsberger has written. Each gun maker is presented with the maximum of data available and a wealth of color pictures about the most . http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl m/www/home, https://www.hunting.be/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Belgian-Proof-Marks.pdf, Belgian Liege gunmakers (A to C) - Volume 1, https://docs.google.com/document/d/17yC Xntqw/edit, https://www.dropbox.com/sc/0sf7osf1dtg1s3r/AABKOd3k4GaQV_ppAci4eWNka, https://books.google.com/books?id=5fxGA g=PA52&lpg, http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/en _type_id=7, https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewto 5&t=471622, https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewto 5&t=474548, https://books.google.com/books?id=5fxGAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA53, http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/ar a%20gb.htm, https://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/it em_id=3618, https://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/it em_id=3202. Colleye Henri Joseph . The 1KG 545 is the barrel weight in grams. Quick Facts Just re-visiting this thread to see if there is any new insight on the symbol "E" in the triangle on the side of the breech. Today's biography is a guest post by our friend Robert White - thanks, Robert! The rifle requirements were developed through a process of lengthy trials and included, most notably, the box magazine that could be loaded by stripper clip or by. It was used by a myriad of hunters for all kinds of wild game. I can't find any other mumbers on the gun other than the multiple proof markings that I will post later. Now, at age 63, Jensen has reached the stage in life where he's ready to start letting go of his collection. Bernimolin The proof marks for Eibar, in Spain, are the letters Po, surmounted by a crown. Arendt Maurice The British Sporting Gun and Rifle: Pursuit of Perfection 1850-1900. The second is the crossed branches, with the letters A.E. It is a hammer back breakaway 12 gauge side by side. Belgium Belgian Proofmarks Belgian proofs are among the oldest and have a very long history. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. It is a 12 gauge with 70mm = 2 3/4" chambers. 3 vols. Serial Numbers. Are you sure they are Damascus and not perhaps fake Damascus made by etching a spiral pattern on solid steel barrels for those who liked the look of Damascus? the examiner in determining the caliber designation of a military The "1136" might be the serial number for that pair of pistols. Jun 21, 2012. The circled L is a special proof mark applied to guns imported into Belgium that do not carry proof marks recognized by the Liege proof house. Misc. The idea behind such a test is to verify the strength of the barrel, breech and firing system of a firearm by deliberately firing an over-pressured cartridge. Introduced to designate arms proved in conformity of German Proof Law of 1891. vast quantity of data to treat, the global work was parted in a series of publications, However, there are more proof marks that I cannot find on the internet. thanks for the help so far. Sorry I can't be more helpful. Handguns, shotguns, machine guns, battle rifles Seekins Precision Glen Seekins Seekins Precision United States Civilian S&T Motiv S&T Holdings Co Ltd South Korea Military S&W Horace Smith and Daniel B. Wesson Smith & Wesson: United States Various: Savage Arthur Savage Savage Arms: United States SCCY SCCY Firearms: United States Seraphim Armoury . These marks have all the characteristic appearance of a rectangle, with a small blob at the top rather like a tied up sack of corn. Today, quality 12-gauge field grade guns from all the American makers during this era can be found and purchased for less than $1,000. Do check with a gunsmith before you shoot it! Colard Louis - Counet Lonard

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